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Friday, October 28, 2005
Todd: Peacemaker or Warmonger?
(MY APOLOGIES: Typepad is having some major issues this week, and it's not formatting my paragraphs correctly on this post (which makes a little less enjoyable to read... sorry).
OK... get ready for a rant. I don't often rant much (go off on any subject that really gets me irked)... but today I guess I'm just in the mood to let it out! :)
Got an interesting email on the whole HYBELS: Don't Ever Think This is Normal post. An MMI reader wrote me to say:
I use to blog at MMI and I greatly offended another blogger, so I stopped. It was perceived as hateful due to my view of God and yet I believed I was giving great hope in my advice, interesting isn't it? I like checking in from time to time to see what's being bantered about and this caught my eye. When I saw your "unbelievable" response to what had been posted I was curious as to why you didn't embrace even a particle of the hurt that had been expressed from the "elm and vine" church goer??? You've always been such the peacemaker!!God bless
Pass this post on to a friend now...
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Comments
Todd, what do you base your assumptions on?
Scripture?
Scripture isn't pragmatic (if it works use it or do it). In fact, God in many cases is directly opposite to pragmatic - Gideon, Abraham, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Jesus, Paul, Peter, etc.
Like it or not, you have a pragmatic worldview that doesn't have a lick of Scriptural Observation to which to found it's belief.
You're statement:
"The proof is in the pudding" begs the question - PROVE IT Scripturally! (btw - who is "they" in the statemenet "as they say" - could it be ... unbelievers???? I ask because the secular world uses pragmatism ALL THE TIME - ask any secular college professor)
God isn't in numbers, God is in individual committment - men and women who worship in TRUTH and Spirit!
Many on these blogs have admonished you and others to "test the spirit" behind these mega church movements.
Are they truly from Scripture?
Do they use a different gospel (watered down)?
I know you WANT to believe the proof IS the numbers. BUT HAVE YOU REALLY TESTED what they teach with SCRIPTURE??? If not, then why do you defend it? If so, then make your defense of THE FAITH, Scripturally.
There CANNOT be two Gospels. There is no grey in this area.... we cannot walk away from the table (as Believers), when it comes to THE Gospel, and say "well, you see the Gospel different than I do" ... NO! It shouldn't be so!!! There are not different gospels for the Believer. There is one! Test it!!!!!!!
I don't care what you believe. I care what Scripture tells us to believe. You're rant is based on what? What you expect to be right? Is it based in Scripture?
If what you "believe" is wrong Scripturally, do you want to beleive against Scripture or do you want to conform to Scripture?
It isn't simple Todd but it is NECESSARY to know what you believe and why - SCRIPTURALLY!
Note... are all "large" churches preaching a different Gospel? NO! Nor are all small churches. This isn't all encompassing... each has it's own Scriptural foundation that can be tested with Scripture. So I want to be clear, I'm not blanketing all large churches.
Posted by: BeHim | Oct 28, 2005 2:36:09 PM
BeHim,
You must've missed when I said, "I'm sorry; but all the criticism ('are they REAL converts'; 'it's just transfer growth'; 'they've watered down the gospel to please man'; all the mega-church bashing, etc.) are really old arguements that hold no water with me."
We've been through this umpteen times here, and I'm kind of weary of it. No... make that really weary. :)
Actually, that's part of the rant... you see,
You automatically assume, BeHim, that this is not a true gospel (and we really haven't even talked gospel truth here in this post, just churches who don't reach out)...
You wrote, "God isn't in numbers, God is in individual committment - men and women who worship in TRUTH and Spirit!"
Absolutely. We agree here. Where we disagree and lose touch is in where these people congregate; and how they get to congregate in the first place. A church like CedarCreek brings many more people to Christ than a hundred churches located in their community. Instead of shouting 'yeah', all we hear (mostly from people in the other 100 churches, I might add) is stuff like watered down gospel, they don't serve the same god we serve, blah, blah, blah.
I never said the proof is in the numbers. (Actually, you said I said that). I agree with you that the proof is in the changed lives. My point was that many of the churches on elm and vine have no recent examples of changed lives. And while they have no examples of changed lives, some people involved in those churches want pity and tear down the fellowships that are getting the job done.
Enough of this 'other gospel' stuff. If you honestly believe, BeHim, that I believe another gospel or endorse pragmatism, then, quite frankly, this is not the place for you. Please don't use this forum as your evangelistic field when there are people out there who need Jesus.
That's about as plain and simple as I can say it.
Todd
Posted by: Todd Rhoades | Oct 28, 2005 3:00:01 PM
It is mandatory to clear up the notion that such a thing as "major leagues" and "minor leagues" exist in the kingdom of God.
It doesn't. There are no major and minor league churches.
One of the first things I learned in seminary is "there is no such thing as a practice church. All congregations are real congregations...not just a step up to something bigger or better."
Every person represents a soul created in the image of God--and created in the image of a God they will someday stand before in eternal judgment.
"Little is much when God is in it" says one of the grand hymns of the church.
But if God shows up, it's no small thing.
Posted by: Phil Hoover-Chicago | Oct 28, 2005 3:44:23 PM
Hi Todd-
You are right to express outrage against small dead churches. Please also be outraged at large churches that seek fame and fortune, thinking they are accomplishing something great for God. Like Ed Young's (10/21/05) article, lifting up creativity and genuis, rather than seeking to be led by the Holy Spirit and relying on the power of God. God can do much better than ANYONE can imagine.
Pastors.com, for example, can show you how to bring in a lot of money by buying their kits and materials (PDL-based). Part of that is espousing false teaching about tithing, rather than teaching about true stewardship. (They teach tithing because they are more concerned about church income than they are true stewardship and spiritual teaching). Who will take a stand for truth,,, even against the "prominent" media celebrity Preachers? The means never justify the ends. It's sad how this false teaching is lifted-up as a role-model for building bigger churches.
...Bernie
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/247
Posted by: Bernie Dehler | Oct 28, 2005 4:01:21 PM
Okay....I'll admit it....I'm serving in one of those elm & vine, smaller-than-small, growing-older-by-the-minute churches. Average age: 80. Average attendance: 50.
It's true: these churches...oops - better only speak for myself lest another believe I speak of them - THIS church shows no evidence of caring for the lost, serving with boldness, or reaching those far from God. They have a terminal disease: old-timers! No...the illness is not their age, it's their attitude. But time is running out for them because there is only about 5-10 years of so-called life left for this church.
They care about tradition, peace, status quo, old routine, dead habits, tired programs, and covering sin. They protect a pastor entrenched in sexual sin, they cover up power struggles, and they laugh at God-given opportunity.
My problem: discerning whether God wants me here to be a catalyst for change or run like the wind from the "crap hole" it has become.
However, in order to be a catalyst for change, those attending this church must be willing to HEAR the message God brings through me (I'm not the Pastor, btw...another staff member).
Two scriptural situations come to mind: Genesis 26 where Isaac is choosing not to fight over the wells but to keep looking for a free-flowing one; and Matthew 10:14 about shaking the dust off your feet when you leave a town that chooses not to listen to your words.
So, BeHim, I understand keeping things in a scriptural view and testing ideas. I also understand Todd's frustration with the dead church.
I think it unfair to generalize that every small church must be a dead one, but it is also unfair to generalize that every big church must be a healthy one.
I feel as though I'll never measure up to the "wow" churches in this country because I have yet to be called to one. In other pastors' eyes, I'm from a small church and only have small church experience, so I must not be worth much to them. I could never serve their church with excellence and minister to their people because my experience is too small.
It seems as though there are people God uses to TRY to awaken the dead churches (big or small). God keeps putting me in these churches for a reason beyond my current understanding.
So...rather than "kick us when we're down" does anyone have any uplifting comments for those of us trying to hang in there?
Posted by: Monica | Oct 28, 2005 4:52:22 PM
Hey Bernie,
Thanks... I by no means want to endorse all large churches... that would be foolish as well.
Please understand... I don't think that just because a church is big; that it is necessarily blessed or even holding to right doctrine.
Todd
Posted by: Todd Rhoades | Oct 28, 2005 4:55:50 PM
Bernie,
Puhlease! Rip Rick Warren when the point of the "rant" by Todd is the fact that there are lots of churches around who are not reaching people for Christ?
First of all, it's obvious you have no first-hand knowledge of what he teaches about tithing and stewardship. I can tell you what he teaches in his CLASS 101 because I just taught it in my church. But again, that's not the point.
If churches are not willing to reach people for Christ, then they are in direct DISOBEDIENCE to Christ.
Argue finer points of theology all you want. Accuse Warren, Hybels, Young, or whoever of whatever you want. But at least they are reaching people for Christ (and yes, they are preaching that they are sinners in need of Jesus) and churning out disciples of Christ, in direct OBEDIENCE to Christ.
You accuse them of seeking fame and fortune. Have you seen them quoted as seeking this, or are simply making a judgment based on your own presuppositions about what is "proper" for reaching people?
I don't doubt you are entirely sincere about your concerns. But I wonder how much first-hand knowledge you possess about them? Have you read their materials yourself, or are you relying on the reviews of others? Are you checking the contexts of the quotes you read?
In one of my messages I discussed the fact that if we are not careful, it is easy to rip Scripture from its context, and make it say anything we want. I used this example: "Jesus says in John 8 to "Go and sin." Did he say that? Yup. But obviously, he said much more - "Go and sin NO MORE." Technically, he did say, "Go and sin." But to say that Jesus advocated sin is not only erroneous, in this case it is heretical.
We are a smaller church (about 55 on a Sunday) in a town of 25,000 and another 10,000 in the county. This church is 120 years old, and we are still at 55. Obviously, doing the same thing over the past 120 years is having the same result: not much effectiveness in reaching people who are going to hell.
Thankfully, our leadership is hungry to reach people for Christ. And we're taking concrete actions to help us do that - all relying on the Holy Spirit, of course.
We are grateful for guys like Rick Warren, who give us practical helps for making decisions about evaluating our past efforts and new ideas.
This church will probably never be a mega-church. But I'm praying that we will be the biggest church in town someday. Why? Because I want the biggest building and the best reputation as the pastor?
No! A thousand times, no! I want us to grow that big because it will be the moving of God in allowing us to be his ambassadors for Christ in making disciples.
And I'm also of the belief that it will also bless other Bible-believing churches in our area, because I'm aware that our church will not "fit" everyone in our area. Many will be more comfortable worshiping somewhere else. And I'm okay with that.
As for the emphasis on numbers, please allow me to repeat something I've said in at least one other thread: behind every number is a soul. I want lots of numbers because that means lots of souls who are now facing an eternity in heaven rather than in hell, who are being established in the faith, and being equipped to fulfill the Great Commission in their own spheres of influence.
I'm begging God to witness the day when the members are reaching more people for Christ than I am, because they understand that the Great Commission is for everybody, not just pastors. I can't wait for the day one of my people comes to me and says, "I need help following up these new believers I've led to Christ." Glory to God when that day comes!
In the meantime, I'm going to do all I can to make disciples and train others to do the same, using whatever methods I can find that bring Biblical fruit for the glory of God and the expansion of his kingdom.
Sorry, Todd, I didn't mean to hijack your rant! :)
Brian
Posted by: Brian La Croix | Oct 28, 2005 4:57:42 PM
Todd,
For once my comments will be brief. Small doesn't necessarily mean dead or dying. To say that such churches don't "give a rip" about lost people is a prodigious generality. Of course true believers "give a rip" about evangelism. In fact, we can't keep quiet about the gospel. It is just we believe people who ". . . use bad words, sleep in the wrong bed,drink too much booze are not in need of discipleship; they are in need of conversion.
It does appear you are making the number of people who attend or are members of a "church" in the present the standard of success. The truth is, success of any ministry large or small will not be known until we stand before God in judgement. Then every man's [pastor's] work will be manifested. Let's wait 'til then to decide. I believe it was Matthew Henry who observed that we count our converts; God weighs them.
Posted by: Randy Seiver | Oct 28, 2005 5:00:52 PM
Bernie,
I also want to echo Todd's latest comment that being big does not necessarily equate to being blessed or espousing correct doctrine.
My comments were simply to state that being big does not necessarily equate to the opposite.
And let me also say that I am not overly proud of my tone in the previous post. Please see it as the frustrations of a pastor that is doing all he can to bring a church to more effectiveness only to hear others questioning the validity of his "methodology" because it has names like Warren, Hybels, or whoever attached to it.
We are seeing people saved, sticking around, and the whole spirit of our church has changed in the last five years. My "senior statesman" is one of my biggest cheeleaders, because he's been through all the hell of this church's past, and he is excited about what he sees God doing in the people here and through the church.
It's a slow go, but God is good.
My prayer for you, my dear Bernie, is that you will be blessed. Please accept my apologies if my previous post upset or offended you.
Brian
Posted by: Brian La Croix | Oct 28, 2005 5:05:31 PM
Brian, of course, no offense taken,,, just sharing ideas.
I think Rich Warren has done a lot of good. So has PDL. But I loathe the false tithe teaching. We should instead teach stewardship. It's a higher standard, and it's God's will. It's also evil, I think, to tell the poor and needy to tithe (give to get), when they should RECEIVE help, as they did in the OT under the tithing situation.
Yes, I spoke of actual PDL tithing statements, such as this article:
http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=4684
Quote:
"All of the arguments against tithing are people looking for reasons not to give,"
That really upsets me how it is so naive and stupid, and it's supposed to be good Christian model advice for Pastors... I'm strongly against tithing, yet give more than 10% to God's work. I don't want to go on and on, but please read a good book about tithing... here's a free download:
http://www.freegoodnews.com/REK-Tithing2.pdf
Or buy it at Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0595159788/104-3542579-3745518?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance
Gosh, we have got to wipe this IGNORANCE and FALSE TEACHING out of our churches! When we teach true stewardship, Christians will do much more than tithing would ever get you to do.
Get it straight, it either ALL belongs to God or just 10%,,, the article is confused by stating both. It wants to have it's cake and eat it too! People are self-deceived when they say "everything belongs to God" then they live selfishly in fancy houses and cars... they aren't fooling God... and they aren't impressing God by giving 10 or even 20% of their disposable income to Him.
Rich Warren, himself, says he does "reverse tithing", giving 90% and keeping 10%. Why doesn't he consider it ALL God's? Of course, he is a multi-millionare, so it's easier for him to give 90% than it is for a poor member (like maybe a single mom) in his church to give 10%.
Just my opinions... as you can see, I feel strongly about them... too much injustice in the name of God going on...
...Bernie
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/247
Posted by: Bernie Dehler | Oct 28, 2005 5:39:07 PM
"The average church on the corner of Elm and Vine doesn't give a flying rip about people far from God."
I recently left a church on the corner of "4th and Main" - had the same problem as "Elm and Vine" for this very reason, I said “let’s reach the lost for Christ,” they said, “we don’t want any more people then our 75” so I asked God for a deliverance from that situation so I could serve him in a place that wanted to live out Matt. 28.
Like others have said I can only speak of my own experiences but - I will have to agree with Bill. He is on the right track in regards to this one. I grew up in a very dynamic small church; I have not experienced that since my time in ministry. I have found that the smaller they are the more selfish they are. This is what I have observed, and it should be noted I have not observed every living church in America, so take my comments in light of that.
Blessings,
Pastor Al
Posted by: Al | Oct 28, 2005 6:28:40 PM
Bernie Said:
“Rich Warren, himself, says he does "reverse tithing", giving 90% and keeping 10%. Why doesn't he consider it ALL God's? Of course, he is a multi-millionare, so it's easier for him to give 90% than it is for a poor member (like maybe a single mom) in his church to give 10%.”
I would just ask, “why are you judging another man’s servant?” “It is by his master that he will either stand or fall.” Unless you truly believe that Rick W. is a true false prophet then you are way out of line, and if you believe that you should not “rail accusations at him” even Michael the Archangel did not do that to Satan. Who are you to say that Rick W. isn’t a pastor in good standing with the Lord? When you demean Rick W. through your ranting, you are in fact doing the enemies work – scriptures say he is an “accuser of the brethren,” why are you doing Satan’s work? It is one thing to point out error in private with a brother; it is another thing to lambaste him publicly and even worse when you don’t know him personally. If you took a 10th of the time looking at Bernie in the Mirror as you do pointing out everyone else’s faults, I am sure we would see a huge change in what you post on this blog.
IMHO,
Pastor Al
Posted by: Al | Oct 28, 2005 6:39:16 PM
Todd:
"I'm sorry; but all the criticism ('are they REAL converts'; 'it's just transfer growth'; 'they've watered down the gospel to please man'; all the mega-church bashing, etc.) are really old arguements that hold no water with me."
Could it be that your bucket is full of holes and unable to contain the truth?
Posted by: Ricky | Oct 28, 2005 6:42:51 PM
Todd:
"Thanks... I by no means want to endorse all large churches... that would be foolish as well."
What?
Todd, where have you NOT endorsed a large organization? All I ever read about on this blog is how great this mega-complex is or that mega-complex and how the so-called "multi-site phenomenom" (which is just another reaction by the mega-complexes to keep things "simple," as if they know what that means) is changing the face of churchianity.
Could you please give us a few examples of large mega-"churches" that you do NOT endorse?
Quote:
"Please understand... I don't think that just because a church is big; that it is necessarily blessed or even holding to right doctrine."
But, Todd, all I see is those "wonderful" examples of souls saved and disciples made that you boast about without barely a glance in the direction of those multitudes more organizations that are being devoured by your mega-machines.
You're not fair in your praise, Todd, whether you want to admit it or not.
Posted by: Ricky | Oct 28, 2005 6:53:48 PM
Al said:
"I would just ask, “why are you judging another man’s servant?” "
Al, I'm not judging him, but his work and teaching, which is all public information. I'm sure he's a brother in the Lord (but I can't judge that either), but that doesn't mean that he can't be preaching some SERIOUS error.
Once you get to see how theologically wrong it is to preach tithing for Christians today (rather than true stewardship), it's quite grinding to see it proposed from Christian "leadership" as if it's correct theology.
BTW, the think I like about Rick's PDL program is the way it activates members by identifying their gifts and getting them plugged into ministry, rather than being just a Sunday morning pew observer. However, I think it's even more important to focus on your calling from God, and seeking the Spirit's leading, and God can then give us the gifts we need to do the job. Operating based on your gifts will keep you in your comfort zone, which is not good when God calls you into new areas. Yes, I've been through this training, so I'm familar with it.
Analyzing what people teach is not bad. The Bereans were praised for it by Luke in Acts.
...Bernie
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/247
Posted by: Bernie Dehler | Oct 28, 2005 7:08:07 PM
Bernie,
I tried for years to understand what you are saying about tithing. I’ve prayed, searched the scriptures and just cannot NOT tithe in good conscience before God. I’m fully assured tithing is Biblical. We will all appear before the Judgment seat of Christ to give an account. I feel good knowing that I will stand before Jesus. I’ll be bringing a lot of people with me as well!!!!! That’s really the bottom line for any pastor or follower of Jesus.
Posted by: Linda | Oct 28, 2005 10:01:36 PM
Todd, you're doing good work on this blog site. I appreciate your tireless investment here. It's very difficult for me to interact with the ideas you put out there when there are a few regular post-ers who are more about their own agenda than productive conversation -- they want to continually challenge large churches and large church leaders.
If you can't stand large churches and their leaders, guys, then why do you spend time on this site? Your voice here isn't productive? Why don't you all go over to Bernie's site and moan about apostate churches. I promise that I won't come there and try to convince you of anything. But allow the rest of us the courtesy of productive dialogue on things that will help us lead in the way we believe scripture and the Spirit are leading us.
Posted by: matt | Oct 28, 2005 11:03:53 PM
Wow. Guess I'll tell our small church of 30 in a community of less than 1000 that we are through. We'll obviously never be good enough in the eyes of the evangelical big-wigs (that does seem to be all that is important), God must not love us, and isn't doing anything through us, and obviously, by the way you all talk, wants us to shut down. We are insignificant to the body of Christ, of no use, and of little value to the kingdom.
Thanks for helping me see the light. Can't wait to tell everyone we are closing down!
Art - a small church pastor.
Posted by: Art | Oct 28, 2005 11:51:49 PM
To Art:
"And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: 'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'" (Revelations 2:8 - 11)
To the mega-complexes:
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
'Because you say, 'I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,' and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
'I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'" (Revelations 3:14 - 22)
Do you know what the difference between the two are?
Faithfulness...or rather a lack of faithfulness.
It's amazing that the church that had the greatest depth of faithfulness had the fewest "members," whereas the large, rich (and I might add technologically savvy) church was "lukewarm" in their faithfulness and in danger of being spat out of the mouth of the Master Builder.
Interesting.
Posted by: Ricky | Oct 29, 2005 1:21:25 AM
Linda said:
"I tried for years to understand what you are saying about tithing. I’ve prayed, searched the scriptures and just cannot NOT tithe in good conscience before God. I’m fully assured tithing is Biblical. "
Linda, and anyone else, can call me at 503-317-0746 to talk more about tithing. No problem at all... if I can't talk when you call, we can make arrangements.
...Bernie
Posted by: bernie dehler | Oct 29, 2005 2:37:13 AM
In response to Art's comments... Art said:
"Wow. Guess I'll tell our small church of 30 in a community of less than 1000 that we are through. We'll obviously never be good enough in the eyes of the evangelical big-wigs (that does seem to be all that is important), God must not love us, and isn't doing anything through us, and obviously, by the way you all talk, wants us to shut down. We are insignificant to the body of Christ, of no use, and of little value to the kingdom."
Art... Brother... this is exactly what I'm talking about. I never said small churches have no value. I never said small churches are insignificant. Please read my rant again because I never said or even implied anything of the kind.
I was talking about Hybel's comment that some churches don't give a rip about lost people. If your church does, then obviously the quote doesn't have anything to do with you or your church.
But if your church doesn't... if you're church is dying a slow death; doesn't want to change, accept new people, reach out; or do anything to reach the community around you that's going to hell; then that's the type of church that I've been talking about here. I don't know your situation and the heart of your church. But I do know this... your church of 30 can have a dynamic impact on your community. It doesn't have anything to do with size.
Sadly, most churches (regardless of size) don't.
Todd
Posted by: Todd Rhoades | Oct 29, 2005 9:16:55 AM
Bernie,
I'm not at all against church planting. I'm a fan, actually. ChurchStaffing.com is a part of Leading Edge Ministries that works to plant churches. Many of the multi-sites that I work with also plant traditional churches. To be honest, there are a myriad of resources out there the give articles and ideas about church planting. There are few that talk about issues in regards to multi-sites. That's one of the reasons I promote it here. I like the idea... I'm seeing it work... and I want to do all I can to introduce it to others. I know you and others don't agree; but that's what I wish to use this forum and blog to do.
As far as constantly promoting larger churches... you have to understand that, again, working with churchstaffing, I work with mostly multi-staffed churches. That means that I work with churches that deal with larger issues, such as staff, growth, leadership issues, etc. It's a different world than the 80% of churches that are 70 or below. I know that... but that's the specialty and forum that God has given me. And I think that God is using this blog to help this type of church and church leader.
So... is this blog balanced? No, of course not... I never said it would be.
Does it need to be... no, not really.
I think I've said this before... this blog is about things that I find interesting and relevent to the audience I try to reach. That doesn't mean that small churches and small church pastors won't find value... it just means that most of the articles are geared toward larger, multi-staff churches.
And yes, this blog is gaining a good following with those churches who are adopting a multi-site format. Again... that's naturally what happens. And, actually, I think that's good. It doesn't bother me that most of my blog readers share my interests and ideas and can discuss them openly and freely here. That's actually the type of community I'm hoping to build. :)
Just some thoughts as I start my Saturday. Today's my son's 14th birthday party... That means lazer tag with 6 teenage boys. Should be a blast.
Off for now...
Todd
Posted by: Todd Rhoades | Oct 29, 2005 9:25:31 AM
as I have read through this blog I can't help but fell frustration. I think the issue is that a church whether big, small, formal, traditional, or contemporary must have a passion to reach out with the gospel, see people come to Christ and then disciple them and train them to grow in their relationship with Christ and equip them to serve Christ according to their spiritual gifts. I pastor a small church (100 average attendance) in a rural area of Virginia. We don't have a traffic light light in our entire county. Our church is located outside of a town of 300. So here a a church of 100 is considered large where the average is 30-40, and a church of 200 is considered huge. The issue isn't size but our passion to accomplish the mission Christ has given to us. Our church is grwoing to understand this. Our county is full of dead and dying churches that have no passion to grow, change and reach the next generation for Christ. In fact I know of only 1 other church in our county area that is remotely healthy, we are a church that is growing towards being healthy.
It not about size but about health and healthy churches grow, pure and simple. Many mega churches are healthy and making a huge difference for Christ - glory to God, I refuse to be jealous, God has placed me were He wants me to be now and others in bigger churches, my role is to be faithful as theirs is.
We are all playing for the same team (Christ's) and striving for the same goal. Let's work togther to make a difference!!
Thanks for the post Todd, shame on those churches who have no passion for the gospel.
Posted by: Pastor Dan | Oct 29, 2005 12:28:14 PM
Bernie,
Thanks for the offer but I refuse to argue theology. I’d rather spend my time trying to live it. As we speak I’m wondering how to raise money for our church planters in Pakistan. They want to start an orphanage for children left homeless after the quake.
Todd,
Have fun at the party!!! I was thinking that multi-site might work internationally. What do you think? I see you have Wayne Cordero on your site. He’s not far from us. I wonder how it’s working for him. It’s been great to partner with one of his offspring churches in our community. We have had such great results in an effort called Transformation Hawaii. All kinds of churches, denominations have joined together in a prayer project to reclaim our communities. It my zip code alone we have seen a 50% reduction in crime in three years since we started. This all began when one high school kid asked if we could all start praying for the kids in his school. Now every child on Oahu is covered in prayer. This is really a youth led effort.
Pastor Dan,
"We are all playing for the same team (Christ's) and striving for the same goal. Let's work togther to make a difference!!"
Amen to that!!!!!
Posted by: Linda | Oct 29, 2005 1:02:31 PM
Todd - In the article you cited Hybels as saying:
"What you're living right now is what Christian leaders all around the world - most of them, anyway - only dream about. They pray that they would see it in some fractional form, and most die without ever seeing it."
Hybels is right! I am a church planter of a 3 year old church in Mesa, AZ, and I can tell you that I uprooted my whole life to come to AZ in pursuit of winning as many to the lost as I could. We have a long way to go as a church, but I can say that I truly celebrate the success of Cedar Creek!
How awesome for them. We each have our cross to bear, and we'll each succeed differently, and we should be challenging each other to move forward.
Scripture? How about 2 Corinthians 3:7-9:
Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
We have the greatest news in the WORLD and it SHOULD be sweeping the culture off its feet. It should come with power and we should not be surprised at the masses being set free from sin.
Let's preach the whole gospel, of course, but let's channel our resources most effectively to reap the most fruit possible. Some churches need a wake up call. There's nothing wrong with encouraging that!
Posted by: Pastor Tim | Oct 29, 2005 5:02:27 PM
