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Wednesday, November 16, 2005
Jesus Cares More About Your Sin and Burning in Hell Than Gas Prices
This kind of thing makes me furious. What in the world do these folks hope to acheive? Maybe someone from "The Church of the Divide" will read this and help explain exactly what you were doing there. This is from the Auburn (CA) Journal:
As the community celebrated the opening of a new church in Auburn Sunday, another church protested the services because of objections to the congregation's "merchandising" and "business-like" strategies.
At issue was the New Life Christian Church's gas subsidizing event last weekend in Auburn. The church paid for more than 200 people to purchase gas at a discounted rate of $1.99 per gallon.
New Life Senior Pastor Bill Jenkins said recently the event was designed to show that God is interested in things that affect people's lives, such as gas prices.
Members welcomed many newcomers to the church's first services at 9 and 11 a.m. Sunday at the Canyon View Community Center. Jenkins describes the church as having a "coffee house" style.
But members from the Church of the Divide in Garden Valley greeted churchgoers with another message outside, with signs proclaiming, "Jesus cares more about your sin and burning in hell than gas prices."
"Christ said, 'Do not make my father's house a house of merchandising,'" said Dick Otterstad, a member of the Church of the Divide. "The true gospel is repentance, but people are going into these services and coming out exactly the same. They might hear an ear-tingling sermon of what they want to hear, get some coffee and leave."
Otterstad said the trend in American churches is toward "megachurches" and "coffeehouse churches" that mimic businesses striving for "customers." But as more people join these churches, he said, community standards are still going down.
The New Life Church would be better to focus on moral issues such as abortion and gay marriage, Otterstad said, but many churches don't because they fear a drop in membership.
"It's a gimmick," he said. "Do you think God cares about cheap gas when we're seeing the murder of the unborn?"
New Life church members invited the protesters to hear the sermon Sunday. Otterstad's son, Luke Otterstad, 20, said he would listen to sermon but suspects the church is misleading people.
"I don't want to see (churchgoers) deceived in that way," he said. "The gospel is the only way to come to Christ and they're luring people in with a cheap marketing trick."
Many people attending services at New Life didn't understand the protest.
"(New Life) is doing something good and people are protesting it?" said Karen Ivan. "Jesus said his true disciples would be persecuted."
Denise Cardona of Auburn said it was exciting to have a new church in the community. She disagreed with protesters.
"That's just silly," she said. "There are many things to protest in the world, and this is not one of them."
Other members said a Christian church protesting another Christian church was divisive.
"It's confusing. Hopefully, we all worship the same God," said Keith Hentschel, a member of New Life. "I don't think anyone's going to turn around (and not come in here) because of that."
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November 16, 2005 in Outreach and Evangelism | Permalink
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Comments
Their name says it all!
Posted by: Art Heinz | Nov 16, 2005 10:54:46 AM
I just love it when Christians fight each other, it does wonders for the cause of Christ.
Posted by: Kurt Lindgren | Nov 16, 2005 11:02:54 AM
Well, this goes to show that we Pentecostals and Charismatics do not have a monopoly on "stupidity."
It seems as though there is enough to go around....
Posted by: Phil Hoover-Chicago | Nov 16, 2005 11:32:43 AM
sounds more like "the Divide of the Church." God cares more about saving souls than whether we like the methods someone else is using to reach them. the message is sacred but the method is not. change the method to do what will communicate to reach the culture we're living in. the message will come thru because it is unchanging. if we keep our hearts right, the method will give a greater platform for the message. and that's the point - get the message out. whether on a platform of helping people with their gas, or healing the sick like Jesus did, or helping peter pay some taxes or whatever - the method serves the message.
i'm sure God cares more about whether people go to heaven or hell than he does whether they're sick or blind - but Jesus still healed the sick and gave the blind their sight.
and he even helped peter with his tax issue.
Posted by: dan ohlerking | Nov 16, 2005 11:43:01 AM
sounds more like "the Divide of the Church." God cares more about saving souls than whether we like the methods someone else is using to reach them. the message is sacred but the method is not. change the method to do what will communicate to reach the culture we're living in. the message will come thru because it is unchanging. if we keep our hearts right, the method will give a greater platform for the message. and that's the point - get the message out. whether on a platform of helping people with their gas, or healing the sick like Jesus did, or helping peter pay some taxes or whatever - the method serves the message.
i'm sure God cares more about whether people go to heaven or hell than he does whether they're sick or blind - but Jesus still healed the sick and gave the blind their sight.
and he even helped peter with his tax issue.
Posted by: dan ohlerking | Nov 16, 2005 11:46:02 AM
Regardless of agree/disagree on tactics/methods I think many would say it's a poor stewardship of money on the one side and a poor waste of a servant's time on the other side. Both could do better!
Posted by: BeHim | Nov 16, 2005 11:47:51 AM
New wine for new wineskins.
If my church could afford to do something like this, we'd do it in a heartbeat!
People need gas. The church is offering to meet a tangible need, and offering the gospel as well.
I wonder if these same people would get upset about having a "diaper drive" to collect diapers for single mothers? Probably - they would be more concerned with telling them they are in sin (which some of them they may be, but that's another issue) than with helping with a need.
Just my opinion.
Brian
Posted by: Brian La Croix | Nov 16, 2005 11:51:51 AM
and we wonder why the world doesn't take the church seriously...
Posted by: Pastor Dan | Nov 16, 2005 11:59:04 AM
Remeber the "stones" article: http://www.mmiblog.com/monday_morning_insight_we/2005/11/what_will_you_d.html . Maybe they have some validity. If you were around at the time of Jesus, and were a Jew, you may also call Jesus and John the Baptist as trouble-makers. They called their "church leaders" vipers and white-washed tombs.
I'm not saying the picketers are doing the right thing, but I am saying they have a point that should be seriously considered. Maybe God is using them to warn the Laodicean church (see Rev. 3)?
...Bernie
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/247/
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
Posted by: Bernie Dehler | Nov 16, 2005 12:23:29 PM
Huh?!
Laodicean?
All they did was share Jesus' love by meeting a need. That's all I know about them; but I would give them the benefit of the doubt rather than side with the others and say they may be Laodicean.
Maybe the people holding the signs are more comparable to the Pharasees of Jesus day.
Todd
Posted by: Todd Rhoades | Nov 16, 2005 12:56:16 PM
Yeah hard topic hey!! "The times they are a chinagin" In this case both are neither 100% right or wrong, they just help us see the need for balance I think. Growing up in traditional churches seeker sensitive was the last thing on anyones mind. Salvation was. I never got the Hell fire, turn or burn, repent or you will die!!! stuff. Instead I got in an argument about peace with a Sunday School and found Christ.
Being seeker sensitive is one new thing that is still hard for me to grasp. So Im still looking for a good explination of it that doesn't seem like we wouldn't want the gospel "to be an offence or a stumbling block".
In anycase, both churches could do more harm and more good. I think the thing to really notice about Christ was He went out to meet the needs of the people, so did his followers. It is important to meet the needs of people, however I think it follows the mandate to go and preach, teach, baptise,and make disciples. So would the more proper thing be to give the parishners, or members of the church (which word is right nowadays?) and while they are at the pump they buy the chap next to them a half a tank of gas, the imagined dialogue would look like so:
"Hey can I buy you a half a tank of gas?"
'Whats the catch?'
"Nothing, God told us to love the world and this is how I would like to show Gods love for you?"
'What? Love and gas, come one man!'
well you get the idea anyways. On the other hand the sign holders could have done the like while they wiped windshields and wore shirts that said, "Flies died for your speed, jesus died for your sins, we will clean the flies, let Jesus clean you." Or something like that. Yeah that was sarcasm! But I think their message is just as right as the others. In a world where no one will come out and say, "You are wrong sorry, here is the way!" it is still needed.
My comment, yeah I know Im getting to it, is simply this. We need to show love, and we need to show that by Gods law none are righteouss. That point should be made more in the lives of the poeple of the church outside of the church, rather than en masse. Because really, why should someone have to go to church to get gas, coffee, cookies, yelled at or hit with a bible, when the people of God should be out flat footing encountering the world face to face and engaging every individual they meet and share both the truth of Gods law and love.
Whadda ya think?
Posted by: Mike | Nov 16, 2005 12:58:44 PM
Todd says:
"All they did was share Jesus' love by meeting a need."
Looks more like trying to buy friendship than meeting a need. There are many greater needs than buying gas. Filling real needs have to be done by 'service,' (feed the poor, visit those in prison, clothe the naked, etc.) but this won't fill the pews... at least as fast as giving away money does.
The protestors may be more analgous to Pharisees, and the church more analogous to "ithcy ear" preachers (2 Tim. 4:3).
I like Mike's post on balance, and the idea/saying regarding washing windows.
...Bernie
Posted by: Bernie Dehler | Nov 16, 2005 1:08:52 PM
I wonder if the people going into this service did (would ever) hear that, indeed, without Christ they will "burn in Hell forever"? I have no way of knowing, therefore I cannot judge, but allow me the hypothetical that this church refuses to confront people on their sins and need to repent. If that were the case...here's a good question: Which "side" is doing the greatest harm--The man-centered-gospel soft-peddlers or the sign-carrying hell-fire-and-brimstoners? Again, its hypothetical...but what if? (By harm I mean--to the souls of the unsaved visitors on that day.)
pdl
Posted by: pdl | Nov 16, 2005 1:26:24 PM
WARNING... Todd Rant Ahead!
Again, let's all decide automatically that this new church is watered-down, 'seeker-sensitive', progressive, leading people down the wide path of destruction. Come on. I guess I just choose not to live automatically thinking the worst in people (and in churches).
And let's side with the 'cram the gospel down your throat' guys. Turn or burn. After all, that approach has shown great promise and growth for the Kingdom. It's a great way to make and grow disciples.
If nothing else, let's show people some respect. Respect for a new church plant. Respect for the unsaved. Respect for the integrity of the gospel.
Common sense, people. That's all I'm asking for.
I think maybe the root problem is that many people look at the unsaved as enemy #1.
Enemy #2 would be any church that does things any differently than our own.
Both aren't.
Both are people Jesus loved.
Both are people Jesus died for.
And so are the Christians we don't agree with. Show some respect. Stay off their property on their opening Sunday. Stop being rude.
I don't know of any scripture (King James included) that condones rudeness from God's people.
If you feel that they are leading people down the road to destruction; redouble YOUR efforts to reach your community in YOUR way for Christ.
But for crying out loud... take your signs and go home.
:)
Todd
Posted by: Todd Rhoades | Nov 16, 2005 2:02:07 PM
Todd, I love you man, but don't get upset when you get a lot of "fighting" over this one... You kinda asked for it. (For the record, I'm with you on this...)
I love this quote. "The New Life Church would be better to focus on moral issues such as abortion and gay marriage, Otterstad said, but many churches don't because they fear a drop in membership." How 'bout churches like this don't FOCUS on those issues because our issue is the Gospel.
If someone asks me how I feel about moral issues, I will pretty much come down on the "conservative" side, sure. But... Abortion, Homosexual marriage, et cetera are NOT my agenda (They weren't Jesus' either... He never mentions homosexuality, does he... yeah, I know Paul does...) but the GOSPEL is! I'm NOT trying to get people to clean up their lives and come in the church. Let 'em come in the church the way they are, messed up and everything... We'll show them Christ, and the Holy Spirit will straighten out all their "stuff". He's a big God. I trust him!
Todd said "I don't know of any scripture (King James included) that condones rudeness from God's people." On the contrary, I think there's something somewhere about Love NEVER being rude, isn't there? Can't remember the chapter and verse... anybody?...
;-)
Posted by: Peter Hamm | Nov 16, 2005 2:53:51 PM
Peter,
Thanks for being on my side... but I will disagree somewhat when you say "I asked for this".
Actually... I didn't think there would be people out there that would side with these 'sign-people'. Guess I was wrong.
What I did ask for is for someone from this church to tell me what they were doing.
I honestly think that there are some people out there that would call something blue if I said it was red; just to be disagreeable.
Anyway... I'll take my chill pill, as you suggest, and maybe even a nap.
:)
Todd
Posted by: Todd | Nov 16, 2005 3:00:36 PM
Is the objection to those just picketing this church? If so that's one thing, but from the tone of many of these post, it sounds like there may be a deeper condemnation to people holding up signs anywhere that proclaim the Truth.
For example, there are people in my city that street preach on public property and hold up Gospel signs. And they catch a lot of hatred from "so called Christians". These folks have seen numerous souls saved by publically proclaiming Christ and are condemned for it.
Let's just make sure we're not blanketing public preaching as "evil" We need to stand by Brothers and Sisters who are willing to take the heat for sharing Christ without "so called Christians" stoning them!
Posted by: Kent | Nov 16, 2005 4:06:24 PM
Todd said:
"I think maybe the root problem is that many people look at the unsaved as enemy #1. Enemy #2 would be any church that does things any differently than our own."
I see these enemies to the gospel:
Enemy #1: Legalism (Pharisees & churchianity, referred often to as "Organized religion")
Enemy #2: Itchy ear preachers making a luke-warm church the standard (not understanding what Lord and Savior means)
It's not always wise to "show respect." That's why (being "disrespectful") they wanted to kill Jesus after He cleaned the temple. That's why all the prophets and Apostles were killed. Confronting others isn't necessarily bad, although it is politically incorrect.
The mega-pastors are (generally speaking) not role-models for confrontation. It would hurt their donor base too much. Money is much more important than truth for (most of) them.
Remember the 'stones' blog article you posted? What is this church doing about it? Meeting and talking with the protestors, or ignoring them? It's an opportunity in disquise. Matt. 18 is the perfect application for this situation. The leaders of both sides should meet in person. If I was the Pastor of the church, I'd see this as an opportunity... to learn and share scripture and application... and how to love each other in the midst of disagreement.
We need to learn how to "love and pray for our 'enemies' " as Jesus taught us... maybe even learn from them...
The best way to fuel the fire is to keep the two groups seperate and slander each other... the opposite of Matt. 18.
...Bernie
Posted by: Bernie Dehler | Nov 16, 2005 4:20:27 PM
Todd, on this topic I will have to say,"Waiter check please." Becuase I had a feeling that there are those who like to pluck chickens after they have been plucked. I am not going there with them like the Dan article buddy... I believe in discussion and comments not disorderly.
Posted by: Evangelist Jeff | Nov 16, 2005 4:26:37 PM
Bernie,
You mentioned 'mega-pastors'.
What were you reading?
This is a church plant we're talking about.
Please stay on-topic.
Thanks,
Todd
Posted by: Todd | Nov 16, 2005 4:38:24 PM
Todd,
I read the article. The reference to mega-pastors was an illustration of my point.
...Bernie
Posted by: Bernie Dehler | Nov 16, 2005 4:40:42 PM
I'd just like one post without a reference to megachurches or pastors.
Please.
Let's try for the next one.
Todd
Posted by: Todd | Nov 16, 2005 4:44:03 PM
Todd said: "And let's side with the 'cram the gospel down your throat' guys. Turn or burn. After all, that approach has shown great promise and growth for the Kingdom. It's a great way to make and grow disciples. "
Well, this way might not get much or any fruit but it sure makes us feel better about our own self-righteousness! These “sign holders” look a lot like the Priest and the Pharisee who passed by the bruised and broken man in the ditch! It is easy to shout at people from the sidelines, it is hard to begin a relationship with the broken and lead them to the Great Physician! Look at all those people that followed Jesus for the Loves and Fishes, and yet Jesus continued ministering to them and offering them Loves and Fishes! Could we say that Jesus was the Originator of this whole “Church Growth” industry! Yikes! I think I recall him saying: “I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” As for me I think I will stick with Jesus’ model, you know meet peoples needs… food, health, spiritual, housing, gas… whatever!
Blessings,
Pastor Al
PS: YOu didn't ask for it!
Posted by: Pastor Al | Nov 16, 2005 4:52:50 PM
Pastor Al said:
"Look at all those people that followed Jesus for the Loves and Fishes, and yet Jesus continued ministering to them and offering them Loves and Fishes!"
Jesus chastised these people for following him because they only wanted their belly filled. Most (almost all) of them then left Him:
John ch. 6 (same chapter as the miracle feeding):
26Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."
then a little later...
66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.
68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."
Posted by: Bernie Dehler | Nov 16, 2005 5:12:41 PM
todd, you didn't ask for this, either, but i'm giving you a big "amen" on your rant. thanks for speaking up.
Posted by: dan ohlerking | Nov 16, 2005 5:15:36 PM
