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Tuesday, March 14, 2006
eBay Athiest Visits Willow Creek
Remember our eBay Athiest we talked about here a month or so ago? Here's a little follow up report from his visit to Willow Creek. I think it's chock full of valuable insight as to how the unchurched view the church. As a side note, I saw Hemet (the athiest) and a representive from Off the Map (the auction winner) on FOX news channel over the weekend. It was very impressive. While Hemet hasn't necessarily changed his mind about God yet, he has admitted that many of his thoughts and impressions of 'the church' were wrong. He seems to be a very intelligent and open person... and I pray that the Holy Spirit will continue to make a mark on his life. Here's Hemet's review of Willow:
So, the first impression I had as I drove into WCCC (Bill Hybel’s megachurch in South Barrington, IL) was the parking lot. And how it was full. On a Wednesday night. I went inside the building. I’ve never heard of a church with escalators… when I entered the auditorium, I realized I hadn’t seen that many white people in one place in a *long* time.
I watched Pastor Randy Frazee give a sermon on a section of Luke, when Christ ressurected the “widow’s son.” While I didn’t think any of that was actually true (Either it didn’t happen, or the son was never really dead), I was still captivated by the way Frazee spoke. He spoke (digressed?) about his mother and how she had been sick, and how she later died, even though he had prayed as much as he could to keep her alive. It was a powerful speech. And I felt sorry that he had to go through all that. In the end, he managed to relate it back to the part of the scripture. Again, I don’t believe the prayers did anything, but I understand how a son would do anything he could to help keep his mother alive.
I was surprised he had me listening so attentively. I know the sermon could very easily have been boring. After he finished, a small 4-person band sang many songs. The audience sang along. I noticed many people who had their eyes closed, which didn’t surprise me. What did surprise me was the whole “Hand up in the air as I sing for Jesus” gesture. Which was followed by the “I’m going to out-Jesufy you and put two hands up in the air as I sing for Jesus” gesture. I don’t get that. Regardless, the music was good.
The megachurch had everything seemingly taken care of. From my vantage point, there were 4 huge television screens to watch the service. (There were many more everywhere else in the building.) When Frazee recited scripture, it was up on the screen. The broadcasting-aspect of the service was extremely professional. There was a soundproof area in the back where people with crying babies could listen to the service. There was a sign-language section. A separate handicapped section. Outside the auditorium, there was a cafe, another cafeteria, a bookstore, a prayer room… It was impressive. It’s not hard to see how people could spend their whole lives *in* this church. And I can understand why it’s so popular. But just because something is popular doesn’t make it right (see below).
I was curious how much money they took in. According to the pamphlet I was given, they made nearly $500,000 in the past week. And over $2,000,000 since the year began.
They also had job postings for the church. (Atheists don’t have this system down. It’s difficult to have a career being an Atheist. It wouldn’t be hard here, though, if I wanted to work full time as a Christian.) What bothered me was they asked company owners and hiring managers to post job openings on their “Job Connection” board. They’re asking bosses to hire people simply based on the fact that they’re Christian… which, if these bosses work outside the church, seems illegal to me.
I’ll admit that if I were to convert, it would have to be at a place like this. They drew me in, and I’m not even a believer. They discarded the numerous rituals I expect to see at other churches. The sermon was interesting, and the activities that they hold would certainly be entertaining (e.g. A lecture called “Who’s Your Daddy? Adam or Ape?”) However, the whole idea that a church of this size would be promoting Intelligent Design and non-scientific theories about the Earth’s origins scares me. Because if they’re doing it, the other megachurches are doing it. And if they’re all doing it, they’re rallying an army of millions of people who don’t know how science works against the precious minority who do. Frightening.
One funny point: As soon as the sermon ended and the singing began, I could see a good number of people begin to leave. It’s like they were at a sports game and the final score was already decided. They wanted to leave early to avoid the traffic. I didn’t know that was permitted at church.
– Hemant
Any observations that really stand out to you?
Todd
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March 14, 2006 in Outreach and Evangelism | Permalink
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Comments
Does anyone know this man's background? Was he raised in a church? Did he have a short stent with Christianity at one time? What is the "axe" he is intending to grind here? Not trying to discount his thoughts, just would like to put them in context.
Anyone?
Posted by: Pastor Al | Mar 14, 2006 10:41:15 AM
Al,
Check out
http://www.off-the-map.org/atheist/
a site that is tracking Hemant's progress in this initiative. You'll learn some great stuff about how unbelievers might view YOUR church... It's helped me a great deal.
or
http://www.ebayatheist.blogspot.com/
This site is Hemant's own blog, and is also very informative.
There is some GREAT honest open conversation going on between Christians and atheists... respectful, honest, open-minded, it's been quite a surprise for the atheists to see how some Christians might relate to them "better" than they've experienced in the past.
Posted by: Peter Hamm | Mar 14, 2006 10:46:29 AM
If I remember correctly, it seems that Hemet's parents were borderline cultish; but I'm not sure. Anyway, he decided that we would not believe in any God when he was you (I'm thinking 13 or so). I don't get the impression that he has an ax to grind; he's just approaching this from a whole different view (athiestic) that we would. That's why I find it interesting.
Todd
Posted by: Todd Rhoades | Mar 14, 2006 10:46:40 AM
I appreciate Hemant's honesty. If he "were to convert" I would pray that he would find many churches that would "draw him in." Isn't that a part of what being 'disciple makers' is about? Cool testimony, Let's continue praying for him (even though he believes that prayers do nothing - we know differently).
Posted by: Jeff | Mar 14, 2006 10:50:16 AM
Thanks for the direction... I want to be fair in my assessment of his motives.
Blessings,
Al
Posted by: Pastor Al | Mar 14, 2006 11:18:08 AM
I'm kind of disappointed in his view that because it is a church giving a lecture on intelligent design vs. Evolution that he assumes they know nothing about science. He seems to have an open mind about so much else and it seems to me that he thinks Christian are ignorant about the physical workings of the world. And he also assumes that the church is promoting Intelligent Design (which I'm sure they are) without actually being informed of it. The thing is, I'm saddened because it says so much about how atheists view Christians.
Posted by: Sarangel | Mar 14, 2006 4:25:32 PM
I hope this is taken right... but I am concerned that we are so quick to take this man's opinions about church when we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into all Truth.
Am I wrong to be a bit concerned about taking advice from a non-believer who does not follow the Spirit much less believe he exists?
Posted by: Pastor Al | Mar 14, 2006 4:44:51 PM
Al, I don't know that it is a matter of taking Hemant's opinions as truth. Rather, it is listening honestly to one who represents the "lost" whom we are called to reach. Unfortunately, we are not blessed with Jesus' ability to accurately know men's hearts. (On second thought, maybe that wouldn't be such a blessing, after all!) Without that ability, I think it is wise to listen to Hemant and others like him to better understand them. After all, if we only listen to what church people say about unchurched people, there's a pretty strong likelihood that our information is lacking or out of date.
Posted by: Randy Ehle | Mar 14, 2006 4:53:41 PM
Randy,
I understand your points and have no major disagreements with them. My only thought is this, once we know his "opinions" are we really going to change our message? Are we going to deny that men are sinners in need of a savior? That Christ came died and rose again to reconcile men back to God? You and I know we are not! And yet what this man thinks of Christianity is “foolishness” just like the apostle said, “Foolishness to the Greeks and a stumbling block to the Jews.” Should we pray for him, of course; should we offer and answer to his questions, of course; should we change the message that has saved men and women for two thousand years, because we think we might “reach” this man? May it never be!
Maybe the real question we need to ask is not what we can do to reach him, but why he has left every church without any conviction of his lost condition and separation from God?
Posted by: Pastor Al | Mar 14, 2006 6:02:45 PM
Pastor Al,
Why would you assume that we would change our message, no matter what Hemet has to say? Knowing how people perceive us is important though, in communicating that message.
Just a thought.
Todd
Posted by: Todd Rhoades | Mar 14, 2006 6:14:39 PM
Todd,
Brother the message has changed. When I get an email that says the gospel requires nothing more than "simple faith" to be saved and the challenge to show where in the Bible it says otherwise - well you really have to be blinded by something or someone not to see that it has changed. That response is the product of years in churches or time in church being told that repentance isn't needed for salvation. Repentance is a stand alone act that Jesus said in Mark 1:15 precedes the call to believe.
Repent - Gr. metanoeo means to repent, to change any or all of the elements composing one's life: attitude, thoughts and behaviors concerning the demands of God for right living.
If Jesus called us to repent and this is what it means, don't you think it worthy to spend some time explaining to people before you call them "saved"?
Regarding the Hemant story have you ever wondered how many atheists are sitting back ROFL watching Christians fall all over themselves to please Hemant?
Just a thought.
Bill in KC
(go ahead and delete it, too much doctrine and theology right?)
Posted by: Bill | Mar 14, 2006 6:46:42 PM
Boy, Bill... so much to say; and yet I don't want to respond, but feel I need to. I won't be drawn into a long discussion about how you feel the gospel has changed on this post.
First off, I'm not sure what email you received and from whom; but it wasn't from here.
I don't know that anyone here EVER has said that repentance is not needed for salvation. I don't think you'll have many takers of that theology here. (If there is anyone who thinks one can be saved without repentance, please make yourself known.)
As far as Hemet goes, I don't think he's said one thing that would make any athiest laugh (little alone roll on the floor laugh) at Christians. From what I've read, he's actually had some pretty positive things to say about the church. Probably some things that fellow athiests would shrug their shoulders at, not laugh.
Just for the record, this won't be a thread about perceived changes in the Message. We'll stick to the original post topic. Thanks.
And finally... and I want to be quite clear here Bill, in Christian love... your last comment was unkind and unnecessary. If you want to continue to be a part of MMI then I expect that you will treat me and others with dignity and respect. Do not taunt or ridicule me or the rules of this forum. I've had quite enough.
Todd
Posted by: Todd Rhoades | Mar 14, 2006 7:15:16 PM
There is Hope!!! Thank God he is in church.
Jesus looked at them intently, then said, Without God, it is utterly impossible. But with God everything is possible. Mark 10:27
Thank you Lord this man is in Church and is going to be saved...
Posted by: Clairvoyent 1 | Mar 14, 2006 10:33:32 PM
"Knowing how people perceive us is important though, in communicating that message."
Todd,
I hear your point and I know this isn’t the thread to discuss how the message has changed, but if you will let me I would like to make an observation about Jesus’ life and dealings with sinners. He never seems to talk to them to get answers on how he should share the “message.” He seems to know that what the problem is, is that the person he is talking to doesn’t know the “message.” It appears that we are, in a sense, falling over ourselves trying to find out what this “atheist” thinks about our message or how we do church, and then we take him serious when he says this is good and that is bad, as if he has any spiritual insight into the workings of the Gospel?
Hey, don’t get me wrong I am glad this gentleman is going to church whether as a ruse or as a serous inquiry or just for the money. And it is interesting to read some of his thoughts, but I must admit I have a very strong caution about what is going on here. There seems to be a bit of mocking on his part towards the movement of the Holy Spirit as people around him were worshipping, and I fear for his soul.
Blessings,
Al
Posted by: Al | Mar 14, 2006 10:43:02 PM
Todd without naming the person it came from I will tell you it was from a discussion that originated in this forum. And I find it strange that anyone would make such a claim that NO ONE in their forum heavy on easy believism has ever proposed a repentance-free gospel when in fact it is preached quite regularly throughout the evangelical landscape today. Have you ready many church websites to find out what their Beliefs are? It is something I have taken the time to do because my heart grieves for those who are not given the truth in love. Do you realize Jesus told the rich young ruler he needed to do something Jesus knew he would not do, but in one of the gospels it is prefaced by the words Jesus, loved him, and said...
If you have not the love in you to share the terror of the Lord with someone at the risk of losing fellowship or friendship or potential friendship with them then you haven't a clear understanding of what love really is.
2 Cor. 5:10-11 reads as follows:
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.
In Christ,
Bill in KC
I will refrain from posting off topic.
Posted by: Bill | Mar 14, 2006 10:51:40 PM
Thanks, Al...
You said, "There seems to be a bit of mocking on his part towards the movement of the Holy Spirit as people around him were worshipping, and I fear for his soul."
That's probably because he's an athiest and doesn't know Christ (yet).
I don't think anyone has suggested (as you have suggested that we have suggested) that Hemet has 'any spiritual insight into the workings of the gospel'. He doesn't, because he's... an athiest!
But here's what he can help us with. (Hear me out here). He can help us know how we are perceived by the unsaved. That can help us possibly change the way we do things. (Notice, I didn't say it could help us change the message we proclaim; but rather HOW we proclaim it.)
One great example... He said in a couple churches he's been in that the churches 'have their own language'. He said the announcements and the bulletins were 'insider information' that didn't make sense to him, either as an unbeliever or as a visitor. That can be a challenge to each church... would an unbeliever understand your language... are you using wording, even in announcements, that people don't know or understand.
Please understand, I'm not suggesting we change the message we are to proclaim; that is to be UNCHANGING. We can, however, find from people like Hemet (who, by the way, would be an unbiased observer who really doesn't care one way or the other) what stumbling blocks we may be putting out there without noticing it.
That's the value... nothing more... nothing less.
My 2 cents.
Todd
Posted by: Todd Rhoades | Mar 14, 2006 10:55:21 PM
You don't judge someone's motives when they show up at your church. The father in the story of the prodigal son didn't stand in the doorway with his arms crossed over his chest, shaking his head and saying to himself "he's only back because he's spent his inheritence" (which would have been entirely fair.) Instead the father took off down the road as soon as he saw his son coming and threw his arms around him. That's the way our Heavenly Father feels about the lost, and that is how the church should feel about the lost. Hement may not be ready to "turn for home" just yet, but if the church demonstrates the love of the Father instead of the pride of the older brother, Hement might yet work up the courage.
PS I'm gonna write "WWTD?" on a post-it and stick it on my monitor! Good manners are hard to come by these days, and yours are always above reproach. Thanks for having standards and for practicing them!
Posted by: kim | Mar 14, 2006 11:09:45 PM
Thanks Bill,
The record will show (as it has before) that you view MMI as an 'easy believism' forum.
I understand your concern, and I understand your position. I really do understand what you're saying and what your concerns are.
But (ah, you knew there was a 'but' there somewhere) I'm not sure what you are hoping to gain here, because this group, as a whole does not share your level of concern in this area.
So again, while the conversation and debate is fun for a while, it's really not a conversation that most here want to have over and over again.
We are not your mission field, Bill. We are, however, doing our best to further the Kingdom and introduce people to Jesus; (yes, through repentance and forgiveness of sins.) We're into spreading that message; seeing people accept it and growing and discipling them in their new life in Christ. And we're passionate about our relationship with Jesus, just like you are.
Maybe we're not saying the same words as you. Maybe our delivery is different. Perhaps there are some, even in this forum, who subscribe to an 'easy believism' theology; but we all will one day have to answer for how and what we did; and whether we were obedient to what God called us to do.
Thanks for staying on topic; and please... if you find that you disagree more than you agree with the posts at MMI; or that you're constantly tempted to correct us for the innovative ministry topics we discuss here; then feel free to find your blog fix somewhere more in line with your beliefs. Not trying to sound mean, just practical.
Todd
Posted by: Todd Rhoades | Mar 14, 2006 11:10:11 PM
But Todd how would you know that my mission field is not the church in the US? I am filling in while my pastor visits a country where people die because of their faith in Jesus Christ, where a decision for Christ may be the last one you make and cost you your life, livelihood and all the comforts you have come to know. I told him before he went that I could see him coming back totally changed because of the heightened risk to being a Christian over there.
Then I look around in this country and I simply wonder how the Apostles would respond to what passes for ministry in our country when 11 of the 12 suffered and died wickedly for their faith in Christ.
Out of respect for your forum I will (and I know I said I would stay on topic for which I do apologize but I simply want to respond and then I'm through for the night) not make it a battleground, but don't be convinced that the churches in this country are not a mission field. I've heard missionaries from China and other countries comments about American evangelicals and they were deeply grieved at the state of the church in America.
Have a Peaceful night,
In Christ,
Bill in KC
Posted by: Bill | Mar 14, 2006 11:27:56 PM
Todd,
Thanks for the response. I do get your points and I can find agreement with the process as you have laid it out.
Thanks for letting me share some of my thougths as well.
BTW thanks for the forum, it is a good place to discuss some of these important issues.
Blessings,
Al
Posted by: Al | Mar 15, 2006 12:00:01 AM
Al,
Thank you so much for your tone and respectful expression of caution. Actually, I do think you are right to caution us not to be so consumed by how the unchurched perceive us allow them to inform all we do. I would be prone to my personal pendulum swinging on that side if not for people to help me stay centered.
Here is an example of how Hemmet’s observations are very helpful . . . [However, the whole idea that a church of this size would be promoting Intelligent Design and non-scientific theories about the Earth’s origins scares me. Because if they’re doing it, the other megachurches are doing it. And if they’re all doing it, they’re rallying an army of millions of people who don’t know how science works against the precious minority who do. Frightening.]
I understand that WC was offering a seminar or workshop to address intelligent design. Hemmet was not likely to attend the seminar, and continues with his belief that becoming a Christian means checking our brains (or at least our trust in science) at the door. Because of what Hemmet offered, it helps me realize that we need to use a more public platform (the pulpit) to communicate the connection between science and faith (methodology). Because of pre-conceived ideas, the Hemmet’s of the world wouldn’t darken the doors of our seminar. For someone like Hemmet, showing that faith and science are not mutually exclusive might be a turning point.
Wendi
Posted by: Wendi | Mar 15, 2006 1:11:25 AM
Hey guys,
Just for the record, It's spelled Hemant (in case he's reading). I'm not sure that everyone who has been commenting has actually read much of the blog at off the map (http://www.off-the-map.org/atheist/). I've been engaging in pretty regular discussion there with a few atheists and it's been pretty rewarding... and unsurprising, I might add. The one big surprise has been for the atheists on that forum, who have found that there are Christians who will debate and dialog with them respectfully. I am thankful for that.
Bill, your point about repentance is well made, but I'm finding that repentance is not the departure point for these thinking atheists, at least based on their words. Their point of contention is simply that they are relatively closed-minded, in many cases, that God simply doesn't exist. And the REAL stumbling block is the existence of the miraculous, especially the resurrection. And in some cases, the mere fact of Christ's existence as an historical person, which many of them deny. Don't bother quoting Lee Strobel or Josh McDowell at them, they find their proofs uncompelling, and they shut down at the names. But I've managed to communicate to some of them that the death and resurrection of a real historical person who was God named Jesus IS the distinction for Christians (the central focal point of history). It has proven to be a great stumbling block for them, as Scripture promises it will be.
I actually think if God's Holy Spirit drew these people and they could get past those issues, repentance wouldn't be such a high hurdle for them. It would make sense, like it did to many in Jesus' day.
Let's identify the real issues (resurrection and the reality Jesus as a real person) before we start debating too much about those that are peripheral to these atheists (repentance). The insights (if you can call them that) that Hemant has regarding the way we communicate in our churches are very valuable for those of us who are trying to communicate the Gospel of grace (and repentance is part of that, of course) to people who are far from God. Does he have "spiritual insights"? Of course, I don't think so. But he does have some practical ones.
btw, I was disappointed that his first experience with Willow was at a mid-week believers' service. I wonder what he would have though had he been there on the weekend.
And Todd, thanks for continuing to let honest open debate flourish here.
Posted by: Peter Hamm | Mar 15, 2006 7:00:05 AM
Hemant - If you are reading, sorry for the misspelling. I know, people spell my name w/ a "y" instead of "i."
Peter - your comments are indeed insights, in regard to conversations with people who reject the existence of God or the miraculous or . . .
Your comments remind me of the danger in assuming what someone's stumbling block is, and then launching into an explanation of the gospel with answers to questions they aren't even asking.
Jesus had the advantage of seeing right into people's hearts, we have to build enough of a relationship to get even a glimpse. Two way dialogue is the only I know of doing that.
Thanks - Wendi
Posted by: Wendi | Mar 15, 2006 12:27:38 PM
In a recent seminar Donald Miller (Blue Like Jazz) said that his experience has been that those who reject God and the church are often the same people who have been hurt and rejected by the church. His answer was to focus upon interacting with the person in trust and honesty.
When people see that the church is not all ______, _______, and ________ (please fill in the fallen or extreme church member/leader of your choosing) they begin to look at Jesus in a new way. It sounds like this is one of the things that Hemant is beginning to experience. I hope and pray that we might be more open to the Hemants of this world so that we can share honestly about who Jesus is when we have earned the write to be heard.
Posted by: sid | Mar 15, 2006 1:12:26 PM
I found his observation about people leaving after the message, and before the closing worship time, interesting. Does anyone else have people arriving consistently late, just in time for the message, and missing out on the opportunity to connect with God and worship Him through singing/scripture/etc.? Or leaving early to get to something more important? If so, how are you encouraging folks to do otherwise?
Kevin
Posted by: Kevin | Mar 20, 2006 10:36:50 AM
