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Tuesday, March 14, 2006
Four More Dead Soldiers
This is not a political post. But it is a post about how ticked I get when people take the Bible and manipulate it for their own purposes.
Westover Baptist Church in Topeka, KS is the most radical example (and the most maddening example) of this. These are, of course, the "God Hates Fags" people. Here's a story on them recently... They now say that God is allowing US soldiers to be blown up because America allows homosexuality. Read this... I found it almost unbelieveable until I looked at Westover's website.
TULSA, OKLA. - A small Kansas church known for its anti-gay protests said Wednesday that it will still picket on the day of soldiers' funerals but won't violate new state laws that limit when and where such demonstrations take place.
"We're not going to get arrested. We obey the law," said Shirley Phelps-Roper, an attorney and member of Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, a fundamentalist congregation headed by her father, the Rev. Fred Phelps.
Westboro Baptist has outraged mourning communities across the nation by showing up at soldiers' funerals with signs that read "God Hates Fags" or "God Made IEDs," a reference to roadside bombs. Members of the congregation contend soldiers are being struck down by God for defending a nation that tolerates homosexuality.
Many times, to be honest, secular newspapers get it wrong; so I looked up Westover's website. Here's what I found just posted:
Thank God for four more dead soldiers. Blown to smithereans yesterday (Sunday, March 12, 2006), by another cheap, homemade Afghan IED. WBC will picket their funerals with a message from God: "Except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it; except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain." Ps. 127:1.
You know, sometimes I get upset here at MMI when people use scripture to try to prove their point while they wag their finger down at others, trying to tell us how they're right on a certain topic. Scripture is, of course, the proof text that we all should use to determine our actions and our lifestyle. But one of the reasons that I don't use just one scripture verse to back up my arguments normally is that many of the things we talk about cannot be backed up with just one scripture verse. Neither can they be disputed with just one scripture verse. It's just hard to do without pulling out one verse (many times out of context, see above) to try to support your point. Anyway... I got off topic).
How a group like Westboro could get so off target of the purpose of a church and be so wrong is interesting and sad to me. They take a biblical truth that most of us here would agree with (homosexuality is wrong) and take it to such an extreme that it violates other portions of scripture.
Probably something we all need to guard against to some degree.
FOR DISCUSSION: Any thoughts or ideas on this one?
Todd
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Comments
Thanks Todd for bringing this to light for all of your readers. I learned of this a couple of months ago when reading my latest edition of American Legion magazine. I wanted to write an article about it on my blog but I could not without absolutely blasting them and that would be wrong too. My prayers go out to these families that have to hire security and veterans groups to guard the funeral proceedings for their lost loved one. Thanks again.
Posted by: Sound Doctrine | Mar 14, 2006 8:15:35 AM
So... This goes back to the argument best expressed in the comments by a certain pair of TV personalities (TV preachers if you will) who stated after 9/11 that it all happened because God has removed his "hedge of protection" from our nation because of all the abortionists, homosexuals, and those who are tryiing to "destroy" the traditional family.
My answer to this is always thus. Does that mean that we actually HAD God's "hedge of protection" while we were stealing this land from the people who lived on it, killing them or driving them to live in third-world conditions on "reservations", and enslaving another people because of their skin color, then using their labor to BUILD this nation, then setting them free only to keep them in economic and social bondage for at least another 100 years? We had God's "hedge of protection" through all that?
I'm sure that these people might think they mean well by holding up these signs and picketing these funerals. I just don't see how Christ would have us behave that way.
Posted by: Peter Hamm | Mar 14, 2006 8:27:22 AM
Truly sad. Your comment about taking a biblical concept to such an extreme that it violates other portions of scripture is right on target. It reminds me of Matthew 23 where Jesus is scolding the Pharisees and Scribes for the same thing.
Posted by: Gene Smith | Mar 14, 2006 8:37:32 AM
Amen Peter, Amen...
Posted by: gib | Mar 14, 2006 8:47:34 AM
Todd,
Holy COW! I WISH this were some sort of sick joke dude...but this makes me sick to my stomach! I can't believe the self righteous attitude of some people.
The reason soldiers are dying is not because of the way America is behaving--it's because we are at WAR! It's a sad fact--but people die in wars...in fact, people have died in every war ever fought--regardless of how their nation behaved. I don't like the fact that people die--but as Christians we are instructed to pray for our leaders--not prey on them!
What REALLY makes me sad is that because of these idiots the media will jump on the bandwagon and lump all Christians into this category. Sad--truly sad!
That's about the nicest thing I can say right now and still have it posted and approved on your site!
Posted by: Perry | Mar 14, 2006 9:04:35 AM
I rarely get angry about stuff (unless my own feelings are hurt, of course. I'm pretty selfish that way...), but these guys do for me.
I've known about them for many years, but until recently they've kept their noses out of our state.
They have protested at funerals up here in South Dakota, and our legislature just passed a law to keep them away.
They say they will obey that law - but you can bet they'll be challenging it. They have already threatened to do so.
Perry, your concern is valid about people lumping us all together with him.
However, I've noticed even in the secular press that people are making the separation, especially as people-loving Christians make their voices heard contrasting Phelps and his ilk.
Thank the Lord that people of God are stepping up in some places to show love and concern.
Brian
Posted by: Brian La Croix | Mar 14, 2006 9:32:25 AM
Todd, I hope this isn't off topic, but I think this is a prime example of why creative ministry is so important. It is vital that we have the true message of Gospel Love to combat when individual groups send the wrong message.
If we aren't effective in our message, then the Westboro's are going to be seen as representative of the Christian faith. Brian is correct, the press is beginning to note there are differences, and we must remain diligent in out efforts to ensure that the public gets to hear the true Gospel message.
Posted by: Gene Smith | Mar 14, 2006 9:49:16 AM
Good post Todd,
On February 1st a family I love lost their son. http://revjeffrey.blogspot.com/2006/03/garrison-avery.html
On February 24th, his memorial service in Lincoln, NE was picketed by these "freaks." This is not a Christian group.
I spent a great deal of energy wrestling with God to not track them down and inflict bodily harm (so you see, I am not yet perfectly sanctified).
These people not only show up at funerals to insult the memories and verbally abuse grieving families, they promote and use the media to draw attention to themselves and sell themselves as "Bible-believing Christians."
They are freaks! (ok, I'm done now.)
Posted by: Jeff | Mar 14, 2006 10:37:07 AM
I have to wonder just how many people read the article about Westboro Baptist Church and as they scanned the rest of the news mumbled, “crazy Christians”, and then had yet another reason to stay away from the church. This sort of thing breaks my heart.
Posted by: Andy McAdams | Mar 14, 2006 10:38:54 AM
Okay, I realize all of that churches media attention focuses on a lot that really makes us angry. But I have to ask a question.
If, IF, and I'm only saying "IF" God were to send prophets to America warning of impending judgement, or even of judgement that had been leveled...
What would they SAY and what would it look like?
Jeremiah was such a prophet, and God did use the evil pagan national enemies of Israel to judge. And the religious leaders of that time had a real problem with it.
So my question is a simple one...
What would THAT look like today?
Posted by: A questioner | Mar 14, 2006 10:59:27 AM
It would not look like this!
http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2006/02/25/top_story/doc4400eb0cb40c1159462553.txt
Posted by: Jeff | Mar 14, 2006 11:11:48 AM
To say that I am outraged by this would be the understatement of the year. If these people were to show up to picket the death of someone I loved, they would not leave without being injured.
Posted by: Matt | Mar 14, 2006 11:19:51 AM
I don't think it would look like this. IF God were to send prophets to America warning of impending judgment (assuming there would be warning beyond what He has already given in Scripture?) A prophet announcing what will happen is different than a group of people manipulating natural consequences as a sign from God. Jeremiah wasn't very popular with the people hat he took God's messages to, granted, but his prophesies were not just about the natural consequences of war. It has already been mentioned that if we take the position of God has removed his "hedge of protection" and is punishing America for her sins by allowing her soldiers to die at war then we must question the consistency of God's nature in "ignoring" our other sins. No, the voices of WBTC and others are simply manipulating natural consequences to justify the human elevation of particular sins.
So, what would it look like? I don't really know and not to sound cliché, but maybe a lot like Jesus? Love? I grieve that groups like this show the world a side of the Church that is most unlike our Lord. My experience has been that "the world" is more impacted by acts of love towards people than acts of judgment. I pray that some kind of prophet will deliver THAT message to the church in America.
Posted by: Jessica | Mar 14, 2006 11:21:27 AM
Yeah, I don't think it looks like this either. Jesus had harsh words for many, but they weren't misplaced. This looks too much like misplaced aggression.
Posted by: Peter Hamm | Mar 14, 2006 12:35:31 PM
The godhatsfags.com site is just the tip of the iceberg. The other sites associated with it are even worse. At one of the others, you can watch, "Your Pastor is a W----," in which the young fella talking says that every pastor in the world (except one...) is prostituting himself for the sake of money.
I can't even get to the original site, because my filter blocks it as a hate site (which it is).
Brian
Posted by: Brian La Croix | Mar 14, 2006 12:51:39 PM
Ok.Now my feathers are ruffled. This church has poured cold water on the wrong "Rooster" "The Bani Rooster"...
I for one am sick and tired of the attitude and actions of some Christians... for going around critizing and putting people down and calling them names, and telling them that God hates Homosexuals, Sinners, etc...
What this church needs is a good dose of SALVATION... Maybe they need to re-read the bible again. Jesus died for everyone.. Romans tells us that ALL HAVE SINNED. Peter said that GOD DOES NOT WANT NONE TO PERISH.
Everyone that is living and has breath has been FORGIVEN PERIOD. God loves the sinner and hates SIN, not the sinner.
Is it any wonder why they tell us that we are judging them. The other night on the AOL blog there was a issue involving this very subject.. My heart broke into to hear Christian's or saying they are Christians using lanuage that was anything but love. I had several of them email me asking questions about where this is in the bible and I gave them the scripture. I did not judge them and I did not brow beat them with the bible.
God opened up a door for me to minister and out of five of them, three of them where willing to look these scriptures up, read them and discuss them with me. They asked me questions and I told them YES it is a sin, and sin is sin... God views all sin as evil not good, bad and ugly... But I told them that Jesus died for our sins, all of them. And I offered them God's Grace through his son Jesus Christ.
I am sorry for preaching to the choir, but I had to get this off my chest.. I am sick of churches doing this, thinking they are better than the lost just because they are saved and they are not...
Posted by: Clairvoyent 1 | Mar 14, 2006 12:57:27 PM
Dear Questioner?
You've got to be kidding! There is no love in protesting a funeral! Jesus wept at the grave of Lazrus. I think He would be weeping at the funeral of a fallen soldier and a homosexual esp. if they didn't have a relationship with Him.
Posted by: Kevin B. | Mar 14, 2006 1:27:51 PM
[You know, sometimes I get upset here at MMI when people use scripture to try to prove their point while they wag their finger down at others, trying to tell us how they're right on a certain topic].
Todd,
The methods of Phelps are deplorable. I can not say that I have seen any comments posted here on MMI that could warrent a comparison to Phelps, possibly, that was not your intention, I hope not.
A very big problem we have in our country is that people are afraid to take a stand and speak out on Biblical truth, because there are many who do not really want to here biblical truth and will use comparisons like the Phelps or Pharisees, to those who genuinly are trying to adhere to what the Bible teaches, and they get gun shy of standing for truth because of the coparison. Consequintly, many of these weak Christians who have been scared of being compared to Phelps, turn to a very touching, feeling, no backbone kind of Christianity which is non offensive and therefore, comfortable and non effective.
Posted by: Kent | Mar 14, 2006 1:53:02 PM
There is more than one Scripture verse that points to homosexuality and sexual sin as being wrong and sinful BUT that gives no credance to doing what these folks are doing in Topeka.
It's an extreme no doubt but I still wouldn't consider these folks as the enemy... deceived yes, but not the enemy.
The homosexual and unbeliever are at war with God and we are all (these folks AND US) considered their enemy. All this does is give the unbeliever one more "reason" to hate God and those who follow Him. That doesn't make these folks right or the homosexual right, they are both wrong, deceived and need (mantra coming :-) ) Sound Doctrine.
The teacher led these folks astray and should be called to the carpet for it (teaching falsely). If he doesn't repent... well, we all know the rest.
Posted by: BeHim | Mar 14, 2006 2:27:20 PM
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Maybe their bible doesn't have verse 11 where scripture declares that people, with the work of the Spirit, can be victorious and be justified. These people protested the church I used to go to because we had a former gay man (who married a post-abortive woman) come and speak. They also showed up when we had one of the Grahams show up. Having been guilty of sins listed in that list, I'm so humbled that the Lord would take me and make me clean. How dare I even begin to think that He wouldn't do the same for people who have done other things on that list. Likewise, I pray that He will come into the protesters and make them clean and justified, freedom from their reviler's mouths and hearts.
If a homosexual can't be cleaned and justified (even if they must battle their same sex desires) then I can't be cleaned and justified either.
Posted by: Paul Davis | Mar 14, 2006 3:34:12 PM
THanks Paul...
When my blood pressure drops below boiling over these things I agree with what you have written more than I want to punch some preacher from Kansas.
For the record. I know that I am a 'once was one of them also!' Thank God for His grace.
Posted by: Jeff | Mar 14, 2006 4:13:31 PM
Believe me, it's not just homosexuals they hate: they hate (and I mean HATE) Billy Graham, Falwell, and others.
They made an animation that is despicable, detestable, and flat-out abominable with these and others in it.
If we were to come across such a thing in gay sites, we would be up in arms. These guys (the Kansas bunch) are just plain filthy. And yes, I chose that word carefully and on purpose.
Kent and BeHim,
You are right that the Scriptures are clear about homosexual activity, and that some pastors may be too ashamed to address the topic from a Biblical standpoint.
However, one of the tricky parts of this whole thing is how we communicate that this is sin, yet also communicate grace in the life-changing gospel of Christ?
I have met and talked with former homosexuals (one of whom has since died of AIDS contracted before he came to Christ) and it's wonderful to see what God can do in the life of someone who is a living example of what Paul Davis points out in the Scripture passage he cited.
One of the best ministries I have come across is Cross Ministries, led by Tim Wilkins, a former homosexual.
He's got a great balance of what I hope to communicate to those I come across.
Brian
Posted by: Brian La Croix | Mar 14, 2006 4:18:28 PM
Here's a question:
Are these folks Believers???
Posted by: BeHim | Mar 14, 2006 4:24:21 PM
Here's an answer:
Why speculate? Maybe they have some things right (but I sure can't see anything from here).
I strive to be like Jesus... something of which I see not a hint of from this group.
Todd
Posted by: Todd Rhoades | Mar 14, 2006 4:29:35 PM
Amen, Todd!
Posted by: Brian La Croix | Mar 14, 2006 5:18:50 PM
