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Wednesday, April 05, 2006
Martin Luther on Pastors
"The ministers of the Gospel should be men who are not too easily affected by praise or criticism, but simply speak of the benefit and the glory of Christ and seek the salvation of souls. Whenever you are being praised, remember it is not you who is being praised but Christ, to whom all praise belongs. When you preach the Word of God in its purity and also live accordingly, it is not your own doing, but God's doing. And when people praise you, they really mean to praise God in you. When you understand this--and you should because 'what do you have that you did not recieve?'--you will not flatter yourself on the one hand and on the other hand you will not carry yourself with the thought of resigning from the ministry when you are insulted, reproached, or persecuted."
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April 5, 2006 in Leadership Issues | Permalink
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Comments
The key to the whole statement:
[When you preach the Word of God in its purity and also live accordingly, it is not your own doing, but God's doing.]
The issue is most pastor's don't preach the Word of God in its purity, it is primarily "bastardized - adj: deriving from more than one source or style" and because of that, there is no Pure living for God only the work of men and their teaching.
Posted by: BeHim | Apr 5, 2006 11:45:53 AM
"The issue is most pastor's don't preach the Word of God in its purity..."
No offense brother, but you can't make blanket statements like this. First of all you don't know most pastors and secondly it implies that you aren't guilty of this same accusation.
I think you've missed Luther's point. What he is saying is that true humility, not to be confused with false humility, understands our identity in Christ. If we know that it is Christ in us, Christ through us and Christ as us, then we will not live according to the flesh, i.e. finding our identity in what we do and don't do, rather we will live out of Christ’s life.
Later.
Ed.
Posted by: Ed Mooneyhan | Apr 5, 2006 12:28:27 PM
BeHim -
Did you really mean to say "NO pure living and ONLY the work of men and their teaching"?
I find the accusation that MOST pastors are BASTARDIZING the word of God in their preaching pretty sweeping and, since it is an obvious generalization (unless you've actually heard MOST of the preaching in America), a completely inappropriate accusation.
My hope is that the thousands of American pastors who humbly and carefully and tirelessly and relevantly preach the Word of God in its purity - in order to build the saints and reach the lost - do so "without the thought of resigning from the ministry when they are insulted, reproached, or persecuted" by hurtful comments like this.
It's one thing to disagree with me or others here. We make our positions known to one another and are invited by Todd to discuss issues, even those of disagreement. But hurtful and sweeping and generalized accusations from a brother in Christ must some days just stab the very heart of men and women who have devoted their lives to fulfill God's call to preach the Word.
Wendi
Posted by: Wendi | Apr 5, 2006 12:44:53 PM
Luther's words are good ones. I am constantly reminding those I serve alongside, and being reminded by them... that we are not capable of doing this thing we've been called to do. Only Christ is. Thank God for His Holy Spirit in us.
As for the humility thing... Pastors, try this. Next time you preach a GREAT sermon, and you know it, or you lead worship and it goes FANTASTICALLY and people really enter in and lift up Jesus' name... instead of hanging around for the pats on the back... sneak out the back door and run home...
Just a thought...
Posted by: Peter Hamm | Apr 5, 2006 12:55:35 PM
BeHim - well stated. Unfortunately it seems there are some who sit and wonder why America is in the state it currently is and yet they haven't the ability to see that it is easily identified as the fruits of an unrecognizeable message about what comes from the word of God and how it is taught from the pulpits of churches in this country. John MacArthur had an incredible set of keynote addresses at his recent Shepherd's Conference held at Grace Community Church which I've listened to, wherein this issue is brought up. But he's also made it the topic of his daily show yesterday and today (available at http://www.gty.org/index.php ) which would serve "Christians" well to listen to.
I spoke about this issue Sunday at my church, in our Pastor's absence, from John 6 with a visit to 2 Cor. 2:15,16. In John you have the crowd of some 20,000 fed and their physical need met by the power of God through Jesus Christ and yet when He taught them about His being the Bread of Life and taking and eating of His body and blood, when they were faced with this difficult teaching all that were left were the 12. What does that say? What truly were their motives for seeking Him out? Certainly not so that they could die to self and abide by His commandments, but rather they were after Him for what they could get from Him to make their life easier.
2 Cor 2:15 says: For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing.
I would simply say that if we are not true to the word of God we are doubtfully to be considered the fragrance of Christ who was 100% obedient and pleasing to the Father.
Then 2 Cor 2:16a says: To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life.
It is our duty to speak the truth, the word of God, the pure Gospel, to all and let the Spirit do its work. Some receive it and truly repent and believe but it is clear that many are being counted among the faithful when evidence is clear they are not.
It was interesting that in the Q&A segment of one of the Shepherd's Conference forums there was a question about church discipline to which John responded that there was going to be a man brought up in his church the coming Lord's Day for infidelity - how often is that type of accountability exercised today in churches across the US? It is mandated by Scripture, yet seldom is it in practice. I know it is in the bylaws of my church and likely the bylaws of many others, but how often does it occur?
A few random thoughts that hopefully did not go too far off topic.
In Christ,
Bill in KC
Posted by: Bill | Apr 5, 2006 1:28:50 PM
Peter,
That sneaking out the backdoor idea is really a good one for anyone when we know God has used our gifts and abilities fully, so as not to take credit for either the gifts and abilities or the results of their use.
There is an interesting tension in this. I often counsel people that gifts are not discovered via some pencil and paper gift assessment (although I believe they have value). Rather, they are discovered as God-given gifts and skills are deployed in ministry AND through the affirmation of that gifting from the body. I often ask people, "how have others in the body affirmed how you are perceiving your spiritual wiring?" (Ever had someone feel sure that God has gifted them musically while everyone else on the team feels sure God HAS NOT gifted them so?) Yet, it is often that very affirmation from others which leads to pride issues. That's why a fully submitted heart is so important, and (for me at least), submitting my heart requires daily prayer and examination by the Holy Spirit.
Wendi
Posted by: Wendi | Apr 5, 2006 1:56:27 PM
Wendi,
SO true! Just like I don't think anyone's calling to ministry comes solely through them. It comes from the people around them in community... the REAL owners of our spiritual gifts.
Daily prayer? Hey, whenever I try and get by without it... It just don't work. So true! Wendi, your church is blessed to have you!
Peter
Posted by: Peter Hamm | Apr 5, 2006 2:20:55 PM
Bill thank you and in context I'll bet you and I would agree with Luther it's not me your thankful for but God in me.
While going through a 15 minute block of instruction on the procurement and use of a hand grenade my drill instructor clumsily pulled the pin from the hand grenade and dropped it near us and yelled run for cover.
When he did so, we all ran (including myself).
The two second block of instruction revealed two things. How fast we REALLY can run and second there wasn't really any of us willing to die for our brother.
Ed, you're right, I have been and always could be guilty of bastardizing the text and praise God for those willing to test me on it.
Barna does a fairly good job of revealing the "fruits" of the labor force going on out there and you know what, even Todd has a problem with them. I'm not going to put word's into Todd's mouth or anyone else's here but I will make a blanket statement that WE as church leader's are doing something wrong NOT right when we think everything is good and we are in need of nothing when in fact, we are naked and guilty of being in need of our First Love.
If the shoe doesn't fit, thank God and give Him Glory. If it does fit, take it off and repent for this is how we came to know our First Love.
Posted by: BeHim | Apr 5, 2006 2:59:47 PM
BeHim writes... [I will make a blanket statement that WE as church leader's are doing something wrong NOT right when we think everything is good and we are in need of nothing when in fact, we are naked and guilty of being in need of our First Love.] BeHim, we often disagree... but not this time. You have got it, brother! AMEN AMEN!
Posted by: Peter Hamm | Apr 5, 2006 3:07:16 PM
BeHim:
Like Peter, I absolutely agree with this statement of yours: [I will make a blanket statement that WE as church leaders are doing something wrong NOT right when we think everything is good and we are in need of nothing when in fact, we are naked and guilty of being in need of our First Love].
I don’t think any of us here feel that “everything is right.” In fact, on the Barna post I pointed out the sad but true statistic that North America is the only continent on the planet where Christianity is declining rather than growing. Certainly something is wrong with that.
What I took (and take) issue with is your completely generalized statement that MOST PASTORS [emphasis mine] are bastardizing the Word of God in their preaching. In fact, many of the pastors you find fault with are leading growing and vibrant churches that are adding disciples (yes disciples) daily just as we saw in the book of Acts. Whatever you think of their preaching, they are not the ones responsible for the statistic I cited. They are being used by God to turn this around. And I would submit that no matter how purely one preaches the Word of God, if the church is not growing (I mean conversion growth here) – something is very wrong. I bet Luther would agree.
Wouldn’t it be far better to make your point by saying something like this:
“Whenever we don’t preach the Word in its purity, we risk living impurely and relying on the work of men and human teaching.” This is a paraphrase of your statement, one that we’d agree is true. But when any of us make a statement that begins with “most people . . .” it is in all likelihood a factually untrue statement, unless we can fully substantiate what it is we are accusing “most people” of.
Wendi
Posted by: Wendi | Apr 5, 2006 3:39:14 PM
I'll admit Wendi, that does sound good :)
There's no doubt I can say things better but I'm not going to stop saying them just because people don't "feel" good.
I'm sure there was a better way to say that too but I'm not good with words as Paul would say.
I'm much better in person.
Posted by: BeHim | Apr 5, 2006 4:02:19 PM
I know that the church could look allot better on the outside and I believe that we need to be intentional about developing the converted into equipped disciples.
I guess what I am trying to remind us all of is what the scriptures tell us about the "eternal" state of the church. It is the fullness of Christ in everything and in every way.. It declares the "never ending" increase of the kingdom. There are those from "every" tongue, tribe and nation seated around the throne. The gates of hell will "not" prevail against it. etc,etc,etc...
By no means is this an excuse to be lacks in our response to fulfill the great commission, it is simply the truth. If we choose to live out of temporal reality then all we will ever see is our shortcomings and live a defeatist’s life. If we choose to see what God sees, the eternal reality of a people who are chosen by God for his glory; vessels for him to fill and pour out on humanity, then we will live out of who we truly are, a holy nation, a royal priesthood, a people belonging to God, declaring the praises of God (paraphrased).
I am not in denial. I just choose to live in the victory that God has promised me and out of eternal reality. If others want to live out of the temporal reality, then all they’ll see is the flesh. I choose his life, not mine.
Can anybody relate to this?
Ed.
Posted by: Ed Mooneyhan | Apr 5, 2006 4:08:29 PM
We're all much better in person, BeHim. Usually our heart leaks out through our faces. One of the disadvantages of cyberspace which we're all susceptible to, betraying our heart with our words.
Wendi
Posted by: Wendi | Apr 5, 2006 4:12:37 PM
BeHim writes, "There's no doubt I can say things better but I'm not going to stop saying them just because people don't 'feel' good."
I, for one, would not ask anyone to stop speaking truth simply because people won't feel good. What I would ask - and what I believe Wendi and Ed have asked here - is that we not make sweeping generalizations based on personal biases and opinions...especially when those generalizations cannot be supported with strong, objective evidence. Such statements are contrary to scripture (cf Ep 4, among others), they are not beneficial to the body of Christ, and they do not build up but rather tear down.
And frankly, BeHim, the statement "I'm much better in person" doesn't hold water. Jesus said, "Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks." (Mt 12:34b) In the 21st century, he might say, "Out of the overflow of the heart the hands type." It is way too easy to type and post without self-editing, but let us not forget what Jesus said just two verses later: "Men [and women!] will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken [or typed]."
Posted by: Randy Ehle | Apr 5, 2006 4:34:28 PM
Ouch!!!
Okay. I think I need to say this. I was not intending to make BeHim feel bad about his statement. I just felt it was too general.
BeHim, don't stop speaking your heart and I think we should lighten up on BeHim today.
Love one another.
Ed.
Posted by: Ed Mooneyhan | Apr 5, 2006 4:39:17 PM
These are very profound words by Luther. I try to be teachable ALWAYS. I also 99% of the time listen to wisdom by these men who lived before me. Because, THEY are a book that is being written and they have lived through the chapters that are lying ahead of me.
I always thank God and give him the glory because I know that with him I could have never done it. What really get's me is this? Why in the world would he use a little country boy like me in his tremendous work? Everytime I have sung a song, wrote a song, gave my testimony, or preached a sermon I have always looked up and said, "Think You God for doing it again." Every time I do any of this I walk away thinking and saying, "LORD, I'M SO SORRY I LET YOU DOWN, I TRIED MY BEST BUT I CAME UP SHORT." Next thing I know, I will have forty people tell me, "Jeff, That was the best song, testimony, or sermon you have every done. Then I have had them ask me, "Jeff have you written anymore songs. Because that last one you wrote really had an impact on me."
It was not me at all. All I can say is IT IS ALL HIM. I ASKED HIM TO SING,SPEAK,AND PREACH THROUGH ME, MAKE THEIR HEARTS FERTILE GROUND. DO FOR ME AS YOU ALWAYS HAVE. That is why I love doing this for him.
Posted by: Clairvoyant 1 | Apr 5, 2006 11:05:22 PM
Luther really pegs it. I can't speak for other pastors. I can only speak for myself. Only I can strive to preach the Word of God in its purity after having poured it through my life. I can expect my congregation to live a holy life if I don't live one myself. I once had an errant member ask me [with a hidden agenda in mind] "How much time do you need to prepare a sermon?" I responded with, "How much do you think I need?" He replied, "One hour." He was shocked when I told him between 15-20 hours and that I would begin a sermon weeks in advance [I work on more than one at a time] and usually it is part of a series. I told him I had to be sure it worked in my life before it could work in his.
One comment I will mention as noted by some using "blanket statements"...I just take note at the numbers of pastors leaving the pastorate because of personal problems: adultery, financial mismanagement, etc. Those leaving to indicate that some pastors are not properly teaching because they have not applied the Word to themselves. Just my thoughts.
Posted by: Dan Moore | Apr 6, 2006 2:59:59 PM
Slipping out the back door. I like the purpose behind it. One question though: What if something God said through you has touched someone and they need to talk to there pastor about it, and yet you are know where to be found? Granted hopefully there are others in the church that could talk to that person, but any many churches there are not.
Often after I speak someone comes up to me and say God had spoke to them through the message and they want me to pray with them, or set up a time to talk to them.
I understand what you are saying, just wonder if that is the best thing to do, just to avoid pride.
Do you understand where I am coming from?
Posted by: Jade | Apr 6, 2006 4:01:17 PM
Jade,
Yes I do. It's not a one-size-fits-all idea, is it.
Posted by: Peter Hamm | Apr 6, 2006 5:08:22 PM
MOST pastor's are either influenced directly by or indirectly by the teachings of Copeland, Haggee, Hinn, Jakes, Olsteen and others on TBN and other stations, as well as by popular books and authors like Warren, LaHaye and Arterburn. Including the teachings of the Faith movement, Pentecostalism, SS, Post Modern, PD and Arminianism.
Influenced by either
1. believing as they do
2. the members in the church themselves believe as they do
3. the christian culture and worldview has been influenced by the teachings and teachers
Because of this influence it is inexapable for MOST pastor's to in some way teach, believe or say what these teachers do.
I don't question if the men are pure, we all know they are not. Is the teaching pure?
If the teaching is not pure (bastardized) then why do we defend it?
If the teaching is pure (unbastardized) then let it stand on the Word of God.
Does anyone here suggest we are NOT to test what we hear and believe?
Because of these things it is safe to assume most pastors (by either direct or indirect influence) don't preach the Word of God in its purity, it is primarily "bastardized - adj: deriving from more than one source or style"
Randy you accuse me of:
making "personal biases and opinions..."
Who doesn't??? But let's be clear: Nobody is objective (unbiased) if you're going to suggest to me that objective mean "neutral"
and that [these biased opinions] "cannot be supported with strong, objective evidence."
There are multitudes of strong evidence all around about their teachings (even on this web site they have been discussed) but why haven't you given them any consideration? Are you biased and opinionated too? If so, in what direction and WHY?
Am I biased? You bet I am. I am biased for THE Word of God to be held to the highest standard of teaching.
I am biased for The Word of God and His Sovereignty. From this comes knowledge, understanding and wisdom in all things.
The suggestion that I am not edifying The Church is wrong. Those who know the teachings are in error are edified by such statements and stand in Truth and Freedom... those who hold to the teachings and teachers are not edified because they feel it is a personal attack on them and thier beliefs.
If we're not willing to change we need not bother seeking The Truth. That may include our beliefs.
Posted by: BeHim | Apr 6, 2006 7:25:11 PM
BeHim,
You write [Because of this influence it is inexapable for MOST pastor's to in some way teach, believe or say what these teachers do.]
BeHim, I think that's a bit of a logical leap. First, you don't know enough preachers and their teachings directly to make such a statement. Second, I just don't see how the influences of our Christian sub-culture lead directly to the teaching, believing or sayiing of these things.
You also write [If the teaching is pure (unbastardized) then let it stand on the Word of God.] And it seems that if that teaching is in any way Pentecostal or Arminian or Purpose-Driven then you are implying that it is contrary to the word of God and therefore bastardized. But I don't want to assume anything. Is that what you're saying?
Posted by: Peter Hamm | Apr 6, 2006 9:41:08 PM
BeHim,
When I suggested the inappropriateness of your generalized accusation that MOST pastors are bastardizing the word of God, I wasn’t suggesting that you should actually “be” objective, because you are right, none of us is objective. We all have biases and opinions. I was suggesting that you, and none of us, should make accusations unless we can back up what we say with “objective” and factual information. If you’d said “in my [subjective] opinion, most pastors are bastardizing the word of God,” we could have chimed in that we agree or disagree with your opinion. But you stated it as if it was fact, which you simply cannot support, objectively.
Please excuse my sarcasm to make my point, but . . . after you have hired a research team to visit every single church in America, and after they’ve listened to several weeks of sermons at every church, and after you’ve assembled the data which shows (objectively) how MOST of the sermons your research team listened to demonstrated a bastardization of the word of God, then post with the data to support your suggestion that MOST pastors are bastardizing the word.
I’m hoping that you will answer Peter’s question from your response to Randy. Are you actually suggesting that any teaching which has Pentecostal or Arminian or Purpose-Driven influence it is contrary to the word of God and therefore bastardized? I don’t want to speak for Randy, but in my opinion that is the kind of comment (if that is your accusation) which is not edifying to the church. Penecostals, Armenians and PD pastors are your brothers and sisters in Christ. Your differences with them are not essentials of our faith, not issues of orthodoxy (not related to salvation). Chapter 4 of Ephesians to which Randy refers says:
“Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is HELPFUL for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen (v. 29) . . . be kind and compassionate to one another (v. 32a).” Paul is describing edifying behavior.
Because these are non-essentials, such comments are neither helpful, kind nor compassionate. These kind of remarks are indeed not edifying.
Wendi
Posted by: Wendi | Apr 6, 2006 11:49:36 PM
I wrote a similar article on this topic regarding Pastor John MacDonald & Donkeys:
http://www.freegoodnews.com/2006/02/formation_being.html
...Bernie
Posted by: Bernie Dehler of FreeGoodNews.com | Apr 7, 2006 1:41:49 AM
And now back to our regular programming (after that commercial plug from Bernie).
Wendi... you've hit on the one thing that probably BeHim and I have butted heads on more than anything here... nothing is subjective to him; it's all black and white. It can't be one way or the other. It's that rigidness that many times (in whatever we're discussing) that often makes me uncomfortable. And it's that rigidness that gets BeHim in trouble and makes him sound so judgemental. (I hope that BeHim would agree with this assessment).
See, taking BeHim's comment, I would agree that either:
1. most pastors ARE bastardizing the Word
or
2. most pastors ARE NOT bastardizing the Word.
Now here's where we part ways...
I don't know which is correct. And I agree with you Wendi, that there's no way of me knowing unless I do the proper research.
BeHim, on the other hand; takes that fact that either they are or not; and makes his decision; declares his position; and then criticizes those who don't agree with him because they don't believe in truth.
In reality, we do believe in truth; we're just not sure which truth is correct. With me, that's ok in most instances; when we're seeking the truth.
Bottom line: I don't know everything; and never will this side of heaven. And I am humble (and probably stupid) enough to admit it.
Love you Behim, but I think this is where you lose most of us most of the time.
Again, just my opinion once again.
Todd
Posted by: Todd Rhoades | Apr 7, 2006 6:09:52 AM
I would submit to you that when there are 80% of Pastors on the radio that are heavily influenced as you can hear by their references, by those that BeHim speaks of, and 80%-90% of friends and aquaintences that say their church has been influenced by and are following the paths of those BeHim speaks of, it is not just subjective.
Posted by: Kent | Apr 7, 2006 9:13:17 AM
